The material in this article is presented in final format in the book Sex, Drugs, Einstein, and Elves.
"DMT in the pineal glands of Biblical prophets gave God to humanity and let ordinary humans perceive parallel universes."
That's kinda what I thought =)
There is undoubtebly some history between religion and psychoactives, most notable psychedelics, be it exogenous or endogenous.
Nice one. Thanks.
Hehehe' SPICE! N' meet with your GOD! Lovit!! Right in your face stylee' hahaha
Prediction: the human speices is slowly evolving away from the seretoin tryptamine based reality. And evolving to a different tryptamine based system that uses the dmt reality filter, vs the seretoinin based reality filter. Which allows for more information to be let in.
But do remember, its still not known for sure if the pineal produces DMT.
Think of the pineal gland as a multi-facetted dimensional mirror' spice produced elsewhere runs the video camera' hence the higher vibration of the pineal gland' kind of makes sence' dmt is produced in red blood cells and the lungs' batteries are wired to the portable video camera' as dmt is produced in the body to run the pineal gland'
If dmt was souly produced within the pineal gland of what would it reflect through' there is no other light sensative part of the brain'
anyways just speaking with myself and you outloud'
Is no the new born child's first breath because oxygen and nitrogen flood the lungs' and get sucked up in large volumes into the red blood cells' of which in my book' makes the baby cry of fright! dmt floods the brain!
Like your concept bro' keep it up' you have a great model there for the workings of dmt.:)
Nubo- do you think visions, sounds and tactile sensations are observed in the Pineal gland?? or elsewhere in the cerebral cortex?
if else-where, do you know where?
When I do psychedelics there is most definitely an inner light that turns on within the brain somewhere, it feels as tho it is where my pineal gland is. Sometimes I imagine I am staring at the walls of the inside of my pineal gland.
Many people have said it felt like they where in a cave, or under ground when they have done DMT or other psychedelics. After many such trips I'm am convinced your seeing the interior of the brain somewhere.
The awareness goes from the surface of the eyes inward. I wish I knew the physiology of what is going on.
I mean the first few times I experienced this I was so over-whelmed that it was possible that, sure, I may have thought I was in a cave or something fantastic, aboard a UFO, but really its a brain function and can be traced to such, I don't really think its that mysterious, in the sense that we are being transported. More like we are bringing information threw ourselves.
Now why would the establishment want to keep this brain function under-wraps?? I do not think its about controlling the masses. I think its much bigger. It seems to me like they are trying to stop some kind of existence from manifesting.
Maybe there are bigger, more intelligent universal players trying to stop consciousness from blooming on planet earth, why....there are lots of reasons.
I see the pineal gland as the projector of imagination and reciever of spiriti light energies' of which is experienced in the back of the brain'
The I AM is the back and creation/perception cognative actions at the front'
I see the pineal as the lantern if you like' that focuses all of the light energy signals and projects them onto DNA and also to our vidual cortex'
The Cave' your psychic cathederal' your sphere of conciousness' experiensing the true nature of how you interact through electrical impulses and light signals' to create perception of all of this'
Nice posts bro!
You fellas are taking the conversation in an interesting direction =)
?? 8) ??: "When I do psychedelics there is most definitely an inner light that turns on within the brain somewhere"
Psilocybine, for one, has a phosphorescent property. In other words, it actually creates light within you ;-)
Certain species contain varying degrees of DMT as well.
One of many religious connection I see: Taoism. The Secret of the Golden Flower -- searching for the light of mind (via transcendental meditation, for example).
My own very first metaphor immediately after my very first "dive" many years ago: someone just flipped the switch for the very first time (in this lifetime). I can see now =)
Nobu: "I see the pineal gland as the projector of imagination and reciever of spiriti light energies' "
What makes the pineal glad anatomically unique is that it is the only non paired brain structure. And what more logical location for a singular element within an otherwise perfectly paired structure than the very middle of it. You think it has an important function? Yeah, I would say so. The connection I see: loss of ego, astral projection, dissolution of duality, religious experience... In between hemispheres; One. Well there's this one particular cone shaped gland that comes to mind, hihi. Ever noticed these cones depicted in religious art throughout history. There's a giant cone sitting in the Vatican. Yup, they know 8)
It's true, our pineal gland is thought to produce DMT (next to melatonin, beta carbolines...), but we already know that DMT is produced throughout the body. Personally, I do think that a "psychedelic" alkaloid such as DMT would be produced right inside the brain together with all the other neurotransmitters. Such logic is framed within limited understanding, of course ;-)
here's a video also depicting the many different glands and there importance as energy centres or chakras.
When I trip, I try to figure out the objective physiology behind whats going on in the brain.
I can make this inner brain light turn on by focusing my attention on inner images, but it is always of fleeting nature.
on the other hand, add a psychedelic substance (mushrooms, Salvia tincture, Ketamine) and this light is amplified so much that my awareness will focus solely on it instead of the exterior reality.
Im pretty sure this inner vision is taking place in the Pineal gland, as Nubo and Dimi3 pointed out, its the centre junction where collected memory of the self can be played back and observed.
But experiencing this inner vision seems to be coupled with trans personal experience, that of conversing with higher intelligences, or God like entities, which makes perfect sense because we are after all, infused with the supra intelligent life force, some call it Gaia, some call it the transcendental other........maybe it is what physicists call the Zero Point Field.
Whatever it is , it is very real and one can gain access to the experience with enough work, will and courage.
now lets imagine a world that is mature enough to handle this experience (which is coming if we dont drop the ball), what will that imply??
oh yeah, the video!
f e e d BACK b e e f
life feeds on life
the death flowered in me
a lone sperm lays upon the shores of Goddess OV'M HOME OMMMMMMMM AUM
dying, dyed, blue spinal home the sperm becomes the spine
the woven fibrous nervous line
The Egg, (dear sweet round planets with xx chromosomes, producers of the nucleus, the factory for birth, the scalar home for all hive)
becomes the heart, the organs, the lungs, the body, the skin... The head of the sperm the left half of the mind, the right half, the woman
The scale of all activity down into the dna
from another dimension, there is also woven, invisble triplet
the 72 degree angle, angel from Buckminster Fullers triple helix tetrahedron spiral, the three is:
do ya dig?
Busy, busy, busy...so many details...the "devil" is in the details...
"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details." - Einstein
the how it happens is fascinating but almost nonessential.
I am aware that when I launch everything that happens is of utmost import. Not just what information is coneyed but the manner of the conveyance.
The dimensions of communication exponentially ot number our usual experience. So much so that our who what when and where are woefully inadequate to frame the experience.
I take the watch and wait approach. All we be made clear as or awareness matures and develops.
I mean why have this programmed back door into the outer realms anyway? Why are we self selected drawn, fascinated, enticed by it's allure.
Most of my friend are too damn petrified to even try it. Yet I am here making it and launching quite regularly.
What have we been called to do?
Last night the idea came to me that each time we experience the other dimension we are attaching guide wires that will allow the multi to fuse into one. We are perceiving entities that create through our perception.
"Last night the idea came to me that each time we experience the other dimension we are attaching guide wires that will allow the multi to fuse into one. We are perceiving entities that create through our perception."
They need us just as much as we need them. We are tangled ;-)
each time we experience the other dimension we are attaching guide wires that will allow the multi to fuse into one.
HaHa!! Nice one' so you do See' Spirits' Dancing' creating of manifestations' keep building bridges across the abyss illusion of time' accelerate our spiritual evolution'
Keep your "Ritual" tight with "Intent" give of self through "Ceremony"
Light in Self Knowledge
each time we experience the other dimension we are attaching guide wires that will allow the multi to fuse into one.
funny how things seem to work.....
While passing thru the age of Kali-Yuga, we adhere to the Material, almost spiritually void, inventing such things like history, elevating our technologies to superior status........
Who could have foreseen that built into this technological age, and its ability to record, would come a time when the connecting of informational points, past-future, here-there, within - without, would conclude in a cultural feed back wave we now call the singularity.
This moment will act as an illumination to the linear materialist mind, illuminating the tether between self as creator, initiating the trip on the love filled path home.
The Internet is the prototype of this wave
I am loving this thread! ... feeling it ...
This is an appendice I wrote on the subject of the pineal in my book, 'Tryptamine Palace' which may shine some light on this subject (no pun intended). This is indeed a fascinating thread, and in my personal theory about the light we all experience in our entheogenic experiences, I agree with Jeremey Narby (The Cosmic Serpent) that it is bio-photonic emissions of 'virtual photons' (i.e. light) which is emitted by our DNA - but I also believe that the source of this bio-photonic light is the zero-point, or Akashic Field, and that this light is also emitted by the 100 billion neurons in our brain, in an intense form of extreme coherence known as a Bose-Einstein Condensate. Those of you who are interested in a further explanataion of these theories afre welcome to read my book, 'Tryptamine Palace', which is easily obtainable ...
Appendices 3: Serotonin, Melatonin, 5-MeO-DMT, and the Pineal,
In the book “DMT: The Spirit Molecule” Rick Strassman, M.D., makes a convincing hypothesis that DMT is produced by the ancient and mystifying pineal gland, which lies nestled up against the base of our brain. Since this time, that hypothesis – which is only a hypothesis – has increasingly been circulated – both within the entheogenic community and without – as a fact. But as it stands today, this hypothesis has remained unproven, and DMT has not been found in the pineal. Nor are there likely to be any breakthroughs in this area in the future, due to the lack of ongoing research in this matter.
What is a fact, is that the pineal is a rich source of both serotonin and the methlytransferases enzymes that transform (methylate) serotonin, melatonin, and tryptamine into psychedelic compounds. The presence of these compounds in the pineal in such high quantities was the fact that causes Dr. Strassman to hypothesize that the pineal is thus the source of the endogenous DMT that has been found in the body. Thus it would seem worthwhile to examine some of these naturally occurring compounds a little closer. And to examine their relationship to 5-MeO-DMT, which is also an endogenous entheogen, as is DMT.
Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) is a neurotransmitter that is produced throughout the brain and the gastrointestinal tract, and seems to be responsible for higher functions of behavior such as planning and other time-related events (J.C. Callaway, 1999). Serotonin is found in all animals, and some plants, and is produced in the human body from dietary L-tryptophan, an essential amino acid. The fact that Serotonin is a tryptamine is the reason that both DMT and 5-MeO-DMT are able to cross the blood brain barrier (BBB) – since their similar molecular shape allows them to ‘key in’ to the receptor sites that are found on the end of nerve cells.
In addition to serving as a neurotransmitter (which is responsible for the communication between the nerves cells (at the receptors) by relaying electric impulses from one cell to another), serotonin is also the metabolic precursor of melatonin. “Serotonin’s major function is basically one of inhibition within the complex neurochemical pathways of the central nervous system (CNS), as if to screen out spurious bits of date to allow one to function better at the job on hand” (Callaway, 1999). Many psychotropic compounds affect at least some aspect of serotonergic activity. And deficiencies in serotonin and tryptophan have been linked with mental disorders such as violent alcoholism, anxiety, depression, and suicide.
What is of interest to us here, is the fact that serotonin can serve as a precursor in healthy humans for the production of 5-MeO-DMT, and 5-hydroxy-DMT (bufotenine). From another metabolic route (and remembering that tryptophan is a precursor for serotonin) DMT can be produced following the formation of an endogenous tryptamine. (Callaway, 1995a). Bufotenine has been found in human urine (Karkkainen and Raisanen 1992; however due to its polarity, it is not thought to be able to cross the BBB; and any psychoactivity from exogenous bufotenine is probably due to conversion to 5-MeO-DMT in the body (Callaway et al. 1995).*
<FN>* There is some evidence from bioassay studies that this statement is not correct; however how bufotenine could cross the BBB has not been explained.
Melatonin has also been linked to the production of entheogenic compounds within the human body. Melatonin production occurs at night, or when the eyes are closed, such as during meditation. (J.C. Callaway, 1999). Like Serotonin, DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT, it is also a tryptamine (N-acetyl-5-methoxy-DMT). It is the primary pineal hormone, and is present in primitive pineal glands (Strassman, 2001). “Mantak Chia (2004), following Ananda Bosman, speculates that greatly increased melatonin levels, as induced through prolonged time in utter darkness, result in not only in increased DMT and 5-MeO-DMT production, but also in other substances that inhibit the very enzymes that normally break down DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Darkness retreats, featuring lengthy immersions in complete darkness, are perhaps best known in Tibetan Buddhism.” (Masters, 2005). As I have mentioned in the main text of this book, Qui Gong masters in Thailand currently instruct their pupils that this is what happening during their month-long darkness retreats. (SoulLab, Private communication, 2007).
Due to the pineal’s role in producing endogenous tryptamines like serotonin and melatonin, I personally find Dr. Strassman’s suggestion that the pineal gland might be the source of endogenous DMT production to be convincing, and others give it credence as well. In a May 1983 talk at a UCSB conference titled “Psychoactive Drugs Throughout Human History,” Dr. Andrew Weil remarked that “dimethyltryptamine …is almost certainly made by the pineal gland in the brain.” Nevertheless, others have expressed doubt about Strassman’s theory. Keeper of the Trout, a writer with a background in chemistry, has stated that it seems unlikely to him that DMT could be created out of melatonin as the result from a simple enzymatic conversion, and he also felt it was even more improbable for such a thing to occur cyclically, which Strassman proposes as a possibility (Hanna 2007). Trout has suggested that, if a chemical with psychedelic activity actually exists in the pineal gland, a better candidate would be one of the 6-methoxylated beta-carbolines (the 6-substitution in a beta-carboline is in the same spot as the 5-substitution in a tryptamine). These compounds are much more likely to cyclically be inter-converted with melatonin via an enzymatic reaction (Hanna 2008). 6-methyoxyharmalan has been produced in vitro from melatonin (McIsaac et al. 1961). Through psychonautic bioassays, Claudio Naranjo found this and 6-methyoxytetrahydroharman to be “hallucinogenic,” stating that the subjective effects for each became apparent with an oral dose of approximately 1.5 mg/kg. (This equates to doses around 100–150 mg according to Sasha Shulgin, who found no activity himself in bioassays of up to around 100 mg of 6- methyoxytetrahydroharman; see Shulgin & Shulgin 1997). Naranjo (1967) described these two compounds as being “of a less hallucinogenic nature in the strict sense of the word, their effect being more akin to a state of inspiration and heightened introspection,” (although perhaps higher doses might produce more psychedelic results). There appear to be no further bioassays of these chemicals reported in the literature. Sasha Shulgin has described this area of human pharmacology as remaining to be “a rich and promising virgin field for exploring” (Shulgin & Shulgin 1997). It is somewhat odd that no one has done any further studies, considering that these chemicals aren’t controlled in any way and they are relatively simple to synthesize (Hanna 2008).
Someday, with further scientific investigation, it is possible that evidence for both pineal-produced DMT and 5-MeO-DMT may be discovered. However, it has been pointed out by Trout that testing for DMT in the pineal gland of a living human being would be hugely problematic. And since DMT is aggressively destroyed (by MAO and other means), there may not be any remaining in the pineal gland of a cadaver (Hanna 2008). Strassman himself found no DMT present in the pineal glands he obtained from “about ten” human cadavers, and he noted that for such a test to obtain the most accurate results, the brains would have to be removed immediately at the time of death and placed into liquid nitrogen to halt any breakdown of the compound (Strassman 2001).
There is now research to say DMT is produced in red blood cells and the lungs' but still no definitive answer to DMT in the pineal'
The Akashic field is a state of conciousness held by mankind collectively'
There is no Akashic field without mankind to maintain it'
Hi Oroc' good to see you bro' hopefuly we can speak some of this stuff' and respectfuly to say' debunk some of this bunk! No offence to you' just every single book chewing quantum and spirituality makes the same mistake' they follow the mistakes of those that walked before them' instead of doing their own ground work'
Micro-tubles are in every living cell in the body' so why should they be attributed to actions in the brain that absorb and create of conciousness!
I see' conciousness is absorbed by DNA and transmutted through light symbols into conciousness perception' of which DNA is also able to transmitte it's own conciousness!
This transfer takes place electro-chemicaly' the energies are transmitted through molecule language into electro-magnetic impulses' of which emitte photons'
Now I actualy know sweet FA about any of this stuff' I just speak with my plants' and we say quantum theory of conciousness is bunk!
And also the Akashic records is no any Zero-point field' the akashic records is created of the conciousness and actions of mankind' recorded in DNA' it is a state of conciousness that sits within the light matrises of DNA light transmuttations' a record recorded in DNA of mankind' We all have a CODE' and individual identity in DNA language' this is of what makes us unique from each other slightly'
If you like we are barcoded'
And all you got to do is read and then speak a barcode and the DNA files open'
These states are achieved through ceremony and meditations' they are no outside of the perception of man' they are the perception and memeory reflections of man!
Anyways' we shall see'
Have a good one !!
Stick your plugs for to sell your book in listings bro! This forum is for psycholgical and spiritual explorations' no to plug for money'
Get real man !!
Ah Nobu, good to see you still have the same respect for sharing knowledge ...
Oroc, I don't mind you posting on my threads or in this forum. I have "tolerance" for other peoples' ideas.
Ah Oroc' would be good to See of what you See instead of using other folks ideas!!
It 2010 no 1944'
You keep hashing the same stuff' of which is no of what you see'
You obviousley require to speak with more plant alies and learn some stuff!
Cos every time you are asked of what you see' you either duck out or cover yourself with quantum/mechanics' of which is no of what you see' it is an invention of science and physics'
What do you see ???
How about answering these simple questions instead of attempting to answer with others knowledge' how about speaking about your own self gained knowledge'
The quantum theory of conciousness is a total load of bunk'
Prove me wrong good Sir!
At least I have asked the questions' and put it all through "Ritual and Ceremony" do so often and help folks daily!
Am a self creation with vast knowledge of plant alies'
What do you know James Oroc' what can you see and express to us of your own mind'
Let's keep this civil, please. Perhaps another thread is in order?
We are all Inteligent enough' I believe' to come up with our own model of conciousness and the working of plant alies' without using past models for to express ourselves'
We can all read these models'
These threads flow way better as of when the information is adjective and self descriptive of personal experiences'
Science is great'
Personal experience is everything!
As I said' i mean no disrespect' just would like to see someone join the experience with personal experience instead of chucking half the internet rehash at us!
Partake and come and tell us of what you see and feel' of how the mind may be able to construct a model of which can be reconstructed and used by others'
Conciousness reflecting conciousness is just conciousness without labels'
Spice kills the name game' we experience the symbols of light communications' this is of what i see' i have' models' as do many others'
"If I see further, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants."
Why is it Nobu that only the information your 'plant teachers' tell you is worthy of this forum ...
Your close mindedness to other peoples ideas and theories makes me think that the plant techers have taught you little
As Krishnamurti said, 'You are hearing, but you are not listening.'
“You’re assuming,” said Dr. Robert, “that the brain produces consciousness. I’m assuming that it transmits consciousness. And my explanation is no more farfetched than yours. How on earth can a set of events belonging to one order be experienced as a set of events belonging to an entirely different and incommensurable order? Nobody has the faintest idea. All one can do is accept the facts and concoct hypotheses. And one hypothesis is just about as good, philosophically speaking, as another. You say that the moksha-medicine does something to the silent areas of the brain, which causes them to produce a set of subjective events to which people have given the name ‘mystical experience.’ I say that the moksha-medicine does something to the silent areas of the brain which opens some kind of neurological sluice and so allows a larger volume of Mind with a large ‘M’ to flow into your mind with a small ‘m.’ You can’t demonstrate the truth of your hypotheses, and I can’t demonstrate the truth of mine. And even if you could prove that I’m wrong, would it make any practical difference?”
Aldous Huxley, Island (1962)
Asking 'what' questions will give you only 'what' answers.
I'm a definite believer, on these debates, on that our physical reality literally melts to the individual, 'experiencer,' entirely, even though the physical reality continues to exist. That one merely focuses one's gaze in a different manner, to understand a new set of just-as-real-if-not-more-'real' pictures. A different existence.
It would explain why shamanic symbology remains the same all around the world when concerned with the 'astral' realm. It would also explain how I saw DNA snakes after my first trip before knowing anything about Shamanism, or psychedelics at all.
'Chemicals', regardless of how physical they may appear to be, are just as abstract as 'the experiencer' as, they are -not- separate from the whole and we can -not- explain everything that happens with the use of a specific 3rd dimensional-based hypothesis shown through the focus of small fraction of all of the available light; it takes all ideas to form a working understanding of physical realty (as we know it on the 3rd dimension -a mathematical inevitable).
And physical reality isn't even the one we as humans occupy the most, even though it's where we most direct our attention! (although, mostly, our 'attention' is based on memories models metaphors etc.) ('attention' being a form of perception, perception being abstract because it isn't bound by physical laws, and we are all perceptual creatures, bound to our -exact- points of focus)
Also DNA, which is what science seems to attribute to what we truly are, is 100 times smaller than the smallest fraction of light, therefore IT'S not even based in physical reality; why do we put so much importance on physical reality? Because we are afraid to come to our own conclusions without it? Because we are taught it is supreme and we know it be untrue and are lonely? Because our DNA limits us to HAVING to? Or because we misdirectedly mistake our perception of ourselves to be merely what we experience the most through our senses? Earth is dangerous, after all; we NEED to be focusing here all of the time to survive!
My beliefs, regardless of 'what' happens, because we all know that human experiences like 'courage' or 'frustration' are more than merely chemicals doing the mathematical inevitable, are that the experience of my existence is the most real teacher that I have that exists. Even more real than chemicals!
'What' is only one direction one could question; without every single of all the other possible directions there isn't even a 'what' direction. An individual perspective only exists because all other perspectives exist, therefore asking only 'what' questions will give you only 'what' answers. You can't separate the 'normal' or 'most abundant' occurrences into the category labeled 'most important for everything,' only 'most important to your working perception. We all come to our own conclusions, in the end.
Red Ice Creations is an alternative news website and an online radio and webcast program based out of the west coast of Sweden, hosted and spearheaded by Henrik Palmgren and Fredrik Palmgren.
Marcel Kuijsten - Julian Jaynes, the Bicameral Mind & The Origin of Consciousness
March 28, 2010
We talk about Julian Jaynes and his theory of the Bicameral Mind with Marcel Kuijsten who is the Founder and Executive Director of the Julian Jaynes Society. We talk about Julian's book "The Origin of Consciousness in the break down of the Bicameral Mind" and Marcel's book "Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited". Topic Discussed: The Problem of consciousness. What is consciousness? Language,, Mythology, Writing, Symbolism, Julian Jaynes, Analogue Eye, Aspects of Consciousness, Behaviorists, Higher Thought, Art, Nicholas Humphrey, Bicameral, Two Brain Half's, the Two Chambers of the Mind, Iliad, Ancient Civilizations, Bicameral Civilizations, Explosion of Mount Thera, Catastrophe, Dr Michael Carr, Introspection, The Fall, Golden Age and more. In the next hour we will continue to talk about Drugs, Entheogens & hallucinogens and their role in the development of our consciousness. We talk about Dreams, The Unconscious, Neurology and the origins of Religion. What role has auditory hallucinations and temporal lobe epilepsy when it comes to the concepts of God and Gods? Is it all a delusion or is it some truth, some function to these aspects of the mind? We continue talking about Marcel's and Jayne's work, some of the new evidence for the theory related to neurology and our understanding of the brain and the mystery of consciousness. We talk about various forms of escapes and how this might have a detrimental effect on our minds with the increase flow of media and entertainment. We also talk about important religious characters like Moses, Jesus and Mohammed to more modern people like William Blake, Emanuel Swedenborg and Joseph Smith.
we are the ones we are looking for.
It is not about finding the answers. It is about finding the information that helps you make sense out of your experience.
I did not start studying sacred geometry until the spice led me to it.
I did not start reading about the kabalistic tree of life until the spice pointed me to it.
All that it showed me was to connect the dots of my experiences.
How do Ii know that sacred geometry is the blueprint of life?
Because the spice showed me how it is done.
Why do I believe in chakras?
Because the spice light mine on fire and let me feel them.
What you read you know about, what you experience you know.
Oroc' shame you have no ideas of your own then bro!
Shame you no learn anything yourself!
You love quoting old dead scientists'
What do you know !! What happens as of when you experience self Gnosis !
Some of what I see through the magic molecule :)))
Staff stands, radiating light outwards from centre to every point'
Arms legs' folding coiling of blues' greens and yellows'
Coils from the ground caress gently as sparkled living waters upwards' reflecting light' each self' outward again'
Atoms of oxygen, hydrogen' methane and nitrogen' do a merry dance to coil, collide to emulse' through singing of golden rays'
Tree of many branches' dances in the sunlight' chuckling' little birds strip her bark for nest'
Ancient view of self looking at all, as is, light dancing' as glistened raindrops' coils connected with diamonds of azure pink an blue''
To gaze is the only way' for scrutiny makes for every pixel to dissolve downwards of the spiral of life'
Looking outward' sitting within, branched of a style' at a country gate' to make of decisions to cross'
This mighty river of emotion flowing' to make the curve of current turning, an see grasses green ' bushes leaves a quiver of the glorious sunlight'
As tiny birds a titter'
flitting of brown feathered coat, black head Sparrow' casts leaf molt to the sky'
As blackbird sits a bow a tree' singing sweetly' for his lady'
and the radiant morning Sun'~
The little Mexican stands with straw hat upon his head' smiling bronzen face' golden buttoned jacket of blue swade'
Arms' legs' twisting' coiling' guitar in his hand' flying across' running a blister hot burning dessert'
Laughing, singing, dancing, playing as he goes' to the joy of dancing freely living' within this glorious garden'
To stand the Tree' of many branches emotions' smiling' chuckling, giggling, like a new born spring stream'
Bubbling and dashing, over wet sun glistened boulders' evenly laying within the pools, of ones mind's' reflections'
Heart a Deer at rutt' body rolling dales of grassy glades' to mountain tops to Sea' this Ocean of awe and blissfulness'
That sparkles within the coil of life'~ through cloudless skies to seas, until morning sunlight tinkles'
"Hello" once again'~
We be the "Tree of Life" the molecules give access to the "Tree of Knowledge"
Light in Self Knowledge'
Shine Bright Warriors of Light!
Nobu, enough with the personal jabs, please. Agree to disagree and move on.
Oroc (Aldous Huxley, Island (1962): "one hypothesis is just about as good, philosophically speaking, as another"
That's right. I for one am very interested in 'scientific' models of consciousness (or 'efforts' rather towards describing certain aspects of it), particularly those which seem to correlate with ancient mystical beliefs. Note: beliefs, not "truths." These are efforts towards conceptualising something which sits outside of the realm of empirical observation. Can consciousness ever be accurately defined? Consciousness cannot step out of itself for it encompasses the entire spectrum of awarenes. As such, it cannot be objectively observed, ever, so who's to say that one belief is better than another?
Smitteh: "'What' is only one direction one could question; without every single of all the other possible directions there isn't even a 'what' direction. An individual perspective only exists because all other perspectives exist, therefore asking only 'what' questions will give you only 'what' answers. You can't separate the 'normal' or 'most abundant' occurrences into the category labeled 'most important for everything,' only 'most important to your working perception. We all come to our own conclusions, in the end."
I'd add that seemingly contradictory conclusions are extremely useful.
Awno'ka: "It is not about finding the answers. It is about finding the information that helps you make sense out of your experience."
It's about finding the right questions to ask, mainly to yourself, basically ;-)
"Can consciousness ever be accurately defined? Consciousness cannot step out of itself for it encompasses the entire spectrum of awareness. As such, it cannot be objectively observed, ever, so who's to say that one belief is better than another? "
You can't talk about IT, because your using IT to talk with.
but on the other hand- it's all a matter of perspective.
It seems very evident that this quality of ineffability is striving for some kind of closure, or at very least, it is like the driving engine behind most if not all our collective pursuits. Society is a enormous process whose function is to express this ineffability.
Was it always like this?? Maybe as soon as we became self aware it has been?
or is it an illusion, our attempts are in vain and the best we can ever hope to do is create art, poetry, theories well this ineffability stares us in the face??
Nobu, "the same stuff" will always arise. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There is nothing new under the sun. And what someone sees is the same thing you see, and is also not the same thing you see at all. Do not forget, without his "BUNK", you can never feel "DEBUNKED" ... everything, idea and everyone is our true nature... There is nothing to prove or unprove, it is already done, always has been and always will be. As for knowledge, we would all do well to unlearn everything, and taking our experiences, via plant allies or otherwise, and defining everything absolute, well, is a load of bunk. That's how wars get started! But even so, there can be no peace without it. So even you, with your extremely judgemental, holier-then-thou attitude, are just as right and wrong as anyone else.
"Listen, you little wiseacre: I'm smart; you're dumb; I'm big, you're little; I'm right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it."
Did you plant allies teach you nothing on Oneness and Emptiness? His mind is your mind, and no-mind. So quit hitting yourself and relax =)
"Why is it Nobu that only the information your 'plant teachers' tell you is worthy of this forum..."
This has been a "folly" of man for so long, to assume his or her experiences are the only right and correct ones. Just because someone speaks with the otherside, doesn't mean what they are learning or are being taught is anything other than a bunch of bunk. As below, so above. If there are liars and trouble makers here, there are certainly there as well. But that being said, all truth are lies and all lies are truth. The flow to each other, support and create each other, it seems.
I have met MANY people who use entheogens and still are extremely cold-hearted, but that just makes our hearts feel all the warmer. But I can't ever be mad at them, for I am them and they are me... I just need to stop hitting myself!
and all my brothers, sisters, and fellow aliens
My name is James Oroc, and I am the author of a book on 5-MeO-DMT titled 'Trptamine Palace'. Those of you who follow the threads on the DMT Tribe may notice that I like to join in on threads I find interesting, especially those that are relevant to the cutting edges sciences of today, and the general study of consciousness, which I think probably most of us will agree, is really what the use of entheogens and other psychedelic compounds is all about. Long since before my book was published I have thought that this DMT community on Tribe.net is one of the most important resources we have, and when I went looking for an honest opinion about my book from some one who in no way knew me, I sent one to Dimitri, our moderator, and hoped that he wouldn't find my ideas too facile or simple ... his subsequent endorsement of my book is thus one I value even greater than Rick Doblin's or Alex Grey's.
Those of you who follow these threats may also have noticed that I have been under personal attack since sometime last year every time I make a posting by a member who goes by the name of Nobu. Personally, I am a great fan of debate, and the respectful disagreement with other peoples ideas and I certainly dont expect everyone to agree with what I have to say. But Nobu's idea of a debate is to simply repeat over and over again that I am wrong and have no idea about anything - with no real counter arguments that I can decipher - and then to heap personal assaults on me, while clogging previously interesting threads with screeds of his personal experiences and some kind of in the moment prose poetry that I am sure he thinks is quite brilliant.
Now, once again purely in my opinion, I think these forums would be a lot better off if we allowed a minimum of peoples personal tripping stories and random gibberish, and concentrated on sharing information relevant to our personal search for answers ... but other people, like Nobu, believe that there experience is paramount - some kind of a divine message if you like - and that the rest of us should bow down to receive these critical missives. This is a common phenomena and not only on Tribe,net - last year I was on a panel moderated by Daniel Pinchbeck and he was ruthless in not allowing peoples personal experiences to dominate the question-and-answer section ... and if he hadnt done that, no one would have got a question in, since someone like Nobu would grab the mike and spend an hour telling us all about HIS experiences ... you get the drift? This is not a good way to keep the flow of information moving ... and this is exactly what happens when Nobu and I collide on one of these forums ... the flow of information unfortunately stops, and degenerates into some kind of an entheogenic pissing match which I am doing my best not to participate in.
This has been going on for awhile now and threatens my continued participation inn Tribe.net, since I cant see the point in posting anything if its only going to result in personal taunts. As I have said, I am more interested in information then I am in recounting my own personal entheogenic experiences to you all ... and I refrain from mentioning my own experiences in my posts. But having reread a number of Nobu's responses to me, he seems to believe a) that I have no entheogenic experiences of my own, or at least of any significance, and b) that I have no ideas of my own, and that I merely rehash a bunch of other peoples ideas - he has even gone as far to say that my editors gave me the ideas for my book and actually wrote sections of the book, an idea that is pretty funny if you know the fighting I had to go through to get 'Tryptamine Palace' to a point that I was happy with it ... I wrote 9 versions with 3 editors over 5 years and had to fight my publisher tooth-and-nails to do the last 2 edits, they were happy a long time before I was. So I will respond to these 2 main allegations, just this once and once only, and in doing so I hope I can satisfy Nobu's curiosity about my own experiences and defend myself of his insults about the originality of my work.
Now, if Nobu had actually read my book, then this would seem unnecessary, since my book is about 50% information, 30% experience, and 20% (or maybe more!) speculation at best ... and I certainly dont claim to be an expert on anything, Im a writer, and Tryptamine Palace is the story of my mystical epiphany on 5-MeO-DMT and my subsequent search for a world-view that could make sense of my radically expanded consciousness. To do so I had to create a synthesis of several radical new possible hypothesis about our consciousness and our reality, and I come up with at least one idea that is uniquely my own, and in doing so, I believe that I have proposed a unique model for the entheogenic experience that is in fact the first one that can really explain many of the puzzling facets of the entheogenic experience itself - something I never expected to do when I started the book.
But I will get to this a little later. First, I would like to respond to Nobu's constant allegation that I am some kind of a psychedelic imposter with no real entheogenic experience of his own, where as Nobu fancies himself as a 'shaman' of some sort and likes to boast of the gallons of aya and ibogaine he has quaffed, as well as his constant consumption of the 'spice' (duh).
Nobu, I first partook of ayahuscha (traditionally) in Ecuador in 1993, and last did it in Peru (traditionally, far from gringos) in 2007. I have also partook in traditional San Pedro ceremonies in Peru, and Peyote ceremony in the South-West. I have had many great accidents on numerous alphabet soup compounds due to my ignorance and sense of play. So I would consider myself reasonably seasoned, But my great teacher has been 5-MeO-DMT (in any form), and my greatest entheogenic adventure, hunting and miking bufo Alvarius toads in the wilds of the Sonora desert.
And why has 5-MeO-DMT been my great teacher? Because it has taught me about the role of ego, it has shown me the unshowable, united me with the One. And given me the mystic's place in the Universe - he who knows his role in it all, in the Cosmic Game, having experienced Consciousness without "I" dentity, outside of Space and Time, the realm of the Transcendental, and now knowing that there is an "I" beyond the "I" that is far greater that anything that can humanly be imagined, but that can, totally paradoxically, be experienced, as gnosis and Union, 'as the moth extinguished by the flame' ...
(Old words again Nobu, but great ones ... once you drink from the mystics cup then you read the words of the great mystics of history with fresh and hungry eyes ... and I must say that I find your attacks on those great minds that have gone before us, those great lives, and your total disinterest in the historical record asinine and childish.)
So that is my entheogenic resume, I'm an adventurer more than a deliberate psychonaut, you will never hear me describe myself as a shaman of any kind, I am a modern mystic, and my own epiphany came as Zen lightning, no external guides, no set and setting, very little knowledge, just me, my life, and 5-MeO-DMT ...
Nobu, personally, I don't see the need to share this information on this forum, and I would far rather quote Joseph Campbell or Aldous Huxley than attempt explanations with my own reinterpreted words, but I'm doing my best here to respond to your criticisms, just or otherwise. I do however find it personally offensive that you continue to say that I have no ideas of my own and that my book is a rehash of other peoples ideas. Since my book is over 350 pages long and covers a great number of topics, I don't have the time or the inclination to point out how very wrong you are but i will offer a summary of my views and where those views came from.
1. I believe that Consciousness is a quantum event: an intense coherence amongst the 100 billion neurons in our brain called a Bose-Einstein Condensate. (Danah Zohar, The Quantum Self.)
2. I believe that the brain RECEIVES consciousness and does not produce it.
3. The source of this consciousness is the same source of information and energy that creates the phenomenal world ... and recently proven underlying field of energy that is called the zero-point field. This is literally the energy of the empty spaces - the voids- of material existence.
The systems theorist Ervin Laszlo has renamed this field 'the Akashic Field' in recognition of the ancient Hindu intuition of its existence, and because it has the capacity to carry infinite amounts of information within it due to its holographic structure. (Lynne McTaggart, The Field, Ervin Lazlo, The Connectivity Hypothesis, The Akashic Field., Bernard Haisch, The God Theory).
4. The physics of this 'Field of Fields' is believed to operate on the same Bose-Einstein Condensate structures that create consciousness amongst the neurons in the brain. So, as the gnostics wrote, 'As Above; So below'. The unique property of Bose-Einstein condensates, which operate primarily in super-conductors around Absolute Zero though are now some how believed to also be able to operate within the human biology (Fritz-Albert Popp), is that when a true Bose-Einstein condensate is produced - total ultimate coherence - then the individual components of the BEC - be them electrons, neurons, or vast inter-galactic fields - cease to exist as individuals, and all the various parts can now be said to be - in real terms - One. And there is no longer separation between the object and the observor.
5. So this is where my own one unique contribution comes in - Nobu, I hope your paying attention, because I never want to hear your crap about the lack of originality in my ideas again - because I propose that when we take powerful entheogens like 5-MeO-DMT, this increases the Bose-Einstein Condensate amongst the 100 billion neurons in our brain until they all resonate in a perfect Bose-Einstein Condensate ... at which point they become a Bose Einsetein Condensate with the entirety of existence ... both material and transcendental, and all of the past and all of the future, since that is all contained with the Akashic Field .. and for the period that those compounds are able to effect the resonance of your brain and if you are suitably lucky and prepared, than you can experience the classical mystical experience and resonate in Oneness with the true mind of God and the surprisingly loving source of our creation.
Now that is my hypothesis, my contribution, I don't expect you to agree with it, but I do ask that you respect it, and stop this foolish parade of personal abuse and childish taunts.
Nobu, In a life that I have always considered a great gift to begin with, 5-MeO-DMT has been the greatest revelation, the greatest joy, and it has weighed me down with the greatest sense of responsibility. That's why I spent 5 years of my life researching and writing Tryptamine Palace and gifted - gave away at my own expense - the first 500 copies at Burning Man. So I find it strange that you attack me at every opportunity, when I can think of no reason why I have offended you. What is it about my ideas that threatens you so much? That I was an atheist and that I now believe in the existence of a Quantum God far more awesome than anything I could have ever imagined? Or that I have tried to find within the language of science an explanation of this event? Quantum Physics is merely the mystics language of the 21st century, the vocabulary we are developing to express the tremendous wonders that we are discovering, no different to algebra when Pythagoras invented it, or the Gnostic dictionary, the Vendata etc etc ... so why such intense hostility at the exchange of streams of information? You lessen your Universe by denying anything my friend ...
Since you are such a great fan of direct experience, I have some more 'old words' for you.
"Direct experience is the highest of all ways of gaining knowledge. All other means are only fragments. In the path of self-realization, purity, one-pointedness, and control of the mind are essentials. An impure mind hallucinates and creates obstructions but an orderly mind is an instrument for direct experiences.'
Swami Rama, Living with the Himalayan Masters.
'An impure mind hallucinates and creates obstructions...' - Nobu, I suggest you consider that piece of advice and reread any number of your own posts and then ask yourself what you are really learning from your plant teachers, and how much your ego has managed to reassert itself on your own sub-conscious level. And perhaps you fear my use of the word God - because you apparently believe that YOU are the primary lens of reality - because thats what your Ego is running from ... Cosmic Obliteration.
Because that is what I also believe, and what I find most interesting these days - that as James Jaynes, William S Burroughs, Ekhart Tolle, and others have proposed, that we have 2 levels of Mind, one Eternal and egoless, one rooted in time and the perception of "I". So I have come to believe that the Ego is a Bose-Einstein Condensate all of its own, but a more modern one, and one that was created to allow the narrowing of focus that brought about language, writing, and ultimately, technology. When you take the mystic's journey, you get given a choice along the way, can you leap into the darkness, the unknown and willingly leave that thing you think you are - the "I" - behind, for the ego-mind cannot perceive the transcendental, and is obliterated at the very beginning of the journey. With the most powerful entheogens like 5-MeO-DMT if you cant leave your ego behind, then you dont make the journey to heaven, you make the journey to hell. (Robert Augustus Masters, Darkness Shining Wild).
This is what I believe in Nobu - very different to what you believe I suspect - and once again I dont ask you to believe it, merely respect my own right to search, my own quest for the Grail, for the dark path in the forest that no one has taken before, that individual path that each and every one of us must hope we find. There is a great movie whose title I cant remember that stars Dennis Hopper as a tele-evangalist and he has there rules of life, and number 4 or 5 was
'Just because it happened to you, doesn't mean it is interesting.'
And I think about these words every time I sit down to right, hoping I don't swim towards the false light of my ego, ever shining bright and desperate to steer me wrong.
So I will ask you, respectfully, to please no longer respond to any threads I make with your personal opinions about me or my work, and I hope I have sufficiently answered your curiosity that you no longer think this is necessary, though I doubt it. And once again, I must stress that I cant really understand what your problem with me is - the little research I have done on the internet about you makes me believe that you work with people with addiction problems with aya and ibogaine and if this is true then I commend you for your efforts. And if you are doing work likt this, then I can really see little reason why you would wish to be so offended by my book or my participation in Tribe.net DMT threads.
I will also note that this personal animosity seems to be intensifying. I see that after 17 5 star ratings on Amazon, I got my first One star the other day, with a lot of the language of the reviewer strangely similar to your style of prose. Equally strange was the fact that you both have the same hometown in England ...
Nobu, Please stop these personal attacks and refrain commenting directly on my posts. And thanks to all the other tribe members who have felt compelled to defend me, or who have sent personal messages of support.
Oroc: "And why has 5-MeO-DMT been my great teacher? Because it has taught me about the role of ego, it has shown me the unshowable, united me with the One. And given me the mystic's place in the Universe - he who knows his role in it all, in the Cosmic Game, having experienced Consciousness without "I" dentity, outside of Space and Time, the realm of the Transcendental, and now knowing that there is an "I" beyond the "I" that is far greater that anything that can humanly be imagined, but that can, totally paradoxically, be experienced, as gnosis and Union, 'as the moth extinguished by the flame' "
Spot on. We must have, for a moment, been looking through the same exact lens =)
Thank you for your thoughtful response Oroc. This forum from its inception has managed to hold a generally positive, friendly/open and non-threatening space for which it is known and appreciated. We are not here to discuss one another but to share ideas, concepts, experiences, information (read forum intro)... Ignore this temporary glitch in the system -- it will pass. Your participation here has been a blessing. Sincere thanks for your efforts.
Perhaps I should thank Brother Nobu for challenging me to state my more personal beliefs and intuitions .. for there is no doubt that this is the forum to do so. I certainly bear him no ill will and I respect his own intuitions and the hard work he apparently accomplishes.
And as always Dimitri your steady presence is appreciated and admired. If there are any blessings here, it is your moderation.
i experimented with cubensis, lsd, lsa, mescaline and mushrooms before the one occasion i tried dmt. i also tried 5-meo-dmt one time and that was also before the opportunity to finally meet dmt came around.
they are all vessels for hearing the songs c(o.o)o